The gunplay RNG is too high.

@link said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

Suppression shouldn't even be a thing.

If you get shot at in real life, your aim doesn't just magically start swaying around. And your vision doesn't go blurry (okay maybe if you're being bombed you'll be shaking from the shockwave).

I get the "artistic" effect of being shot at but yea... it's definitely too much and not fun. Especially because you have to run 5x more in Sandstorm than in Source to get to the objective because everything is spread out more.

Suppression is a necessary mechanic (that mirrors reality) that makes firing at enemies meaningful. LMGs are damn near useless in their intended role with it. Dont run so much, you'll live longer.

Also, have you ever been shot at in real life? Do you have friends who have? No? Then stop acting like an authority on what happens in real combat.

If you ask anyone who has had gunfire close to their head, it DOES blur your vision for a split second. Unless they're firing subsonic ammo, the bullet creates a sonic boom next to the target when it passes causing a momentary blur of vision and a loud snap near where it traveled. And the equivalent of your aim getting fucked up happens too. You duck, you move, you do something when that happens near you. You don't hear bullets crack beside your head and think its a good idea to stay out there. INS is much nicer about bullets than reality. I don't need Sandstorm to be reality, but don't claim that you know what it's like.

Sorry to come off a tad salty but its obvious you don't know what you are talking about.

edit: spelling

last edited by Marxman LMC

@cauce So is it the random nature of the sway that is a problem for you? I feel at the moment, the suppression is barely a thing in this game, and I feel the sway should increase. I've tested them out on multiple occasion, and it seems there isn't much sway in this game at all for all guns. I'll probably post something soon on this matter to explain what I mean, but in short, I think if you are standing with a long barrel gun, you shouldn't be able to hold that thing very well after 2 seconds. Perhaps if you are in cover that might be different.

@eyeofhorus how is it being used incorrectly? The computer is generating (pseudo-)random numbers to impact gunplay.

@cyoce
Only meant that replacing the word “randomness” with “RNG” is technically incorrect, though I understand that the randomness (or pseudo-randomness) is created through the use of an RNG.

@marxman-lmc Suppression works Insurgency 2 just like you described in real life. But, instead of doing something to your character, it forces you to take cover because you're a few inches away from death. It doesn't need an artificial debuff. And if NWI does decide to keep a debuff in this game, please make it something other than RNG.

@ctbear1996 It reduces sway, but you can't even use focus if you're out of stamina.

@link said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

@eyeofhorus I am saying that stamina sway is more in Sandstorm AND it is more frequent that you are fully exhausted in Sandstorm because the maps are larger and objectives more spread out / lot of open terrains you have to run across or be shot. Because there is a ton of open terrain and you have to run far distances, you do have a chance of being suppressed more often. The suppression sway is much stronger in Sandstorm than in Source. So the sway mechanics are greater in Sandstorm by a fair amount AND they happen more often because of the map layouts.

At the moment, suppression sway and stamina sway are pretty highish. Sway should be strong enough to throw off the aim of a sniper/marksman/rifleman at 50-150 meters or so but still allow for retaliation in CQB.

Honestly, suppression sway could probably use an increase. It really isn't that much. Force people to actually run to cover rather than allow them to retaliate and kill whoever got the jump on them from sixty meters. That's just retarded.

Fuck I didn't even realize there was another page to this lmao

@marxman-lmc

That's fair. But it needs to be toned down.

Suppression sway still shouldn't be in the game. It's not fun. It's a game within a game that is random. Randomness in video game isn't fun it's frustrating.

Just mimic INS Source and it'll be fine. Right now it's much more apparent.

last edited by Link

@marksmanmax said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

Honestly, suppression sway could probably use an increase. It really isn't that much. Force people to actually run to cover rather than allow them to retaliate and kill whoever got the jump on them from sixty meters. That's just retarded.

There are better ways to accomplish what you want rather than introducing random sway. It's not fun. It's annoying. Watching me miss my shots because of random sway is frustrating

Changing movement speed so that you can't change directions so fast (just mimic Source)

@link But that whole "random sway" is the most difficult part of actually shooting accurately though. It is barely noticeable compared to the last game, let alone, even if you hold a M249 or M24 while standing without bipod and you are exhausted from running and then get suppressed, it is then noticeable, but not given the situation. I mean hell, it's hard to hold anything of a standard rifle weight while you stand up without anything to rest it on, with only your left hand holding most of the weight in an awkward position more than one or half a seconds at best. When you mean predictable, do you mean complete predictability like in counter-strike? or somewhat random, but smooth transition of the sway?

@link It's not "random sway" per se. You are getting shot at; your soldier should realistically be panicking.

Again, though, it's not like I want so much sway that CQB engagements just become mag-dump fests; just enough to make sure you can't easily "counter-snipe" while being shot at. That's just pretty dumb.

@io543 the supression sway and stamina sway in sandstorm is much greater than source. Test it for yourself. I go back and forth between the two regularly.

the vertical recoil in source is greater than sandstorm - which I think should be increased in sandstorm

What is fun is more important than what is realistic... this was tested in source and people were frustrated with it because it was a random mechanic that messed with their aim. In real life, sure.. that is real life and it's my body getting tired and gravity. In a video game.. not something I really want to have mess with my aim.

I think in Source the sway was perfect and so was the suppression effect.

last edited by Link

@marksmanmax

I don't want a random algorithm controlling my aim... not in a video game. It's not fun. If it was predictable then sure. Currently the game is a spray fest at the higher level. The game is a spray and pray fest because of the movement speed. You can abuse the movement entirely.

Decrease sway to source levels. Increase vertical recoil, decrease random horizontal recoil. Modify movement speed so people lose speed making sharp turns.

Source did it perfect with sway and that was after A LOT of testing and tweaking, especially during alpha.

It appears you and @io543 and others want more "realism" even if it means sacrificing fun. I am on the opposite fence. I don't mind realistic elements just don't want random sway messing with my aim in a video game.

@link What is fun for you maybe different from others. My sort of fun is for the game to make you think about getting suppressed, or suppression. My sort of fun involves thinking about running to a point, but decreasing my ability to aim. It involves more thoughts and tactics rather than simple joy of running and gunning. I'd be playing BF right now if that was the case. This is a niche game after all.

@io543 Of course. I just wanted to voice my opinion. I see here we have the classic case of an unmovable object meeting an unstoppable force haha.

I played source competitively for 4 years my friend, I do a whole lot of thinking and strategizing. More so than most. I've spent more time practicing nades than most people have spent playing the actual game 😛

There's a lot more than sway that makes Insurgency, Insurgency. I know it bothers a lot of people but most people don't care to voice their opinions here.

But we agree to disagree. tips hat

@link fair enough, and I see where you are coming from. Although I do try to support the competitive scene of this game, it hasn't been a big part for me (since there is literally no servers for Oceanic region in Ins2 competitive, nor the player count in SS.

However, I don't think more sway would discourage the competitiveness of the game if it were to be implemented correctly. As I said, if the sway is only a problem for heavier guns and while you stand/tired/suppressed, then it would only add to the dynamic. Whereas the SMGs and carbines would still be used for running and gunning sorts due to their relative light weight and thus less swaying, the heavier counter parts would be more slower, needing to be stationary and in position to be used accurately but powerful. And assault rifles would be a versatile intermediate. The LMGs are only rifles with bigger magazine at the moment and doesn't have much of a distinctive role in my opinion, rather than a stationary power house but a heavy encumbrance for the user to ADS without bipods.

@link said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

I see here we have the classic case of an unmovable object meeting an unstoppable force haha.

That's a pretty good way to dodge a hate-speech argument lol. I gotta write this down.

@marxman-lmc Said a lot of what I've been thinking while reading this. To add to what he said: the human body has quite a few major reactions to imminent threat of death. Tunnel vision, adrenaline, restriction of blood flow to the limbs. It makes you loose peripheral vision, tune out everything but the threat, it makes your arms weak, your fingers fumble, muscles twitch. Above a certain heart rate you struggle to use your fingers effectively. The human body has not evolved to fight at distance with dexterity dependent weapons. It kinda sucks.

So, when someone is shooting at you while you're behind cover the best option is not to poke your head out into their field of fire and try to shoot them back. It's asking to be beaned. You should not be able to easily and accurately return fire while being actively fired at. The game doesn't need to allow you to do that effectively. Defeat your enemy with maneuver and tactics. When they suppress you in one location, shift and return fire from somewhere unexpected. Get a teammate to engage them while they're firing at you. If you expect to win a gunfight based solely on shooting skills, you're going to die.

@marksmanmax said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

Honestly, suppression sway could probably use an increase. It really isn't that much. Force people to actually run to cover rather than allow them to retaliate and kill whoever got the jump on them from sixty meters. That's just retarded.

If you get the jump on someone, try shooting them instead of shooting near them. Then it doesn't matter how much sway they have.

@cyoce That's always the goal, but in some cases, they could be suppressed from LMG fire, especially the Dshk.

Looks like your connection to Focus Home Interactive - Official Forums was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.