Incendiaries need to be removed from co-op (and frenzy needs a hotfix)

There is virtually no reason to actually retain incendiaries and molotovs in co-op. On the flip side, there's a lot of reasons to be rid of them.

  1. The laser guided molotovs from bots, which seems to have made a return in this patch just make the deaths feel random, unfair and arbitrary. This is exacerbated by the new CQB maps, where the molotovs are even more effective.

  2. They enable rushing behaviour and aren't all that useful to players outsode such rushing. The incendiaries are good for one thing for players, and that is rushing and blowing up caches; they allow rushers to simply sprint up to the cache and blow it up by simply getting that one grenade on it. This sort of behavior makes the game worse for every other player and ruins the pacing of the game by making things like teamwork and coordination (required for the point, since you either have to escort the demolitions to it or cover the guy laying down a explosives) pointless. This sort of behaviour can even get toxic, where rushers will blindly throw incendiaries which wind up hurting their own team.

  3. They are also mostly worthless in blocking areas; bots simply rush through them and all they do is block players' line of sight and constrain their movement.

  4. They pretty much turn frenzy into a joke; you don't die to anything so much as you die to the molotovs, and it's the same story every single map and every single point, where the team drowns in molotovs and doesn't even get to see any of the actual rushers. The molotovs also make little sense in the context of the game mode, since they essentially provide powerful AoE ranged attacks to the melee bots; thus breaking the whole theme of the mode.

Each of these issues has been exacerbated by the new patch, which has seem laser guided molotovs return in a big way.

I think that it's time to admit that the incendiaries just make co-op worse overall and make them a PvP only thing. The only real beneficiaries on the incendiaries in co-op are the bots and rushers, who gain at the expense of all other players.

@cool_lad I'd argue that LGMS has been a thing for a while. Supposedly, 1.13 should have fixed LGMS occurring with molotovs specifically, but I don't think it did.

Most of these other problems aren't really issues with the grenades themselves; they're just problems within the AI. As for players rushing caches, I think this can be solved in a better way. He typically gets that far to the cache because there's just no opposition, so actually spawning bots close to or on the cache would help a ton, as well as possible ambushes along the way.

@cool_lad said in Incendiaries need to be removed from co-op (and frenzy needs a hotfix):

  1. The laser guided molotovs from bots, which seems to have made a return in this patch just make the deaths feel random, unfair and arbitrary.

Return? I didn't know they actually went away...

Still, they're not really random. The game doesn't just drop LGMs on you at random intervals. Every one is thrown at you by an enemy that has spotted you. To some extent, every time you die from an LGM is a failure of situational awareness. But, they are definitely unfair - the bots can hurtle them with inhuman range and accuracy.

  1. They enable rushing behaviour and aren't all that useful to players outsode such rushing. The incendiaries are good for one thing for players, and that is rushing and blowing up caches; they allow rushers to simply sprint up to the cache and blow it up by simply getting that one grenade on it.

This is an interesting point. It would be interesting to see how gameplay would change if sitting defenseless on a cache for a while was the only way to blow it. Maybe keep the Breacher's C4 / IED ability to blow caches too, which would make them a bit more niche.

@MarksmanMax also has a point here too, in that adjusting the scoring mechanic so that more than just the person who destroyed the cache gets points for it would also help alleviate the solo-rambo style and team killing. The two in conjunction could be an interesting mechanic. If someone needs to sit and plant to destroy the cache, then awarding points to everyone in proximity when the charge is planted would further encourage a team to stay close and protect the planter.

  1. They are also mostly worthless in blocking areas; bots simply rush through them and all they do is block players' line of sight and constrain their movement.

That's not been my experience. Occasionally bots do seem to walk through fire or perfectly skirt around it, but I see (and hear) a whole lot more bots burn to death than I do see them angle-of-death through the fire. It does certainly block sight-lines for the defenders, which makes it an interesting compromise.

Um, no. Incendiaries are the best way to take out caches and this is a good thing.

Hello @cool_lad,

Regarding the last point, it has been fixed after today's hotfix.

  • Fixed overuse of Molotovs by AI enemies in Frenzy. Molotov use by AI is meant to primarily prevent players from camping in places unreachable in melee. However, there was a bug where they were wrongly determining when a player is unreachable, and thus using their Molotovs way too much.
  • Fixed an issue where Frenzy AI would shift between behaviors sometimes while flanking a target.

You can check out the change list here: https://forums.focus-home.com/topic/40096/update-1-3-free-weekend-updated-19-06-2019/

I'll also pass the idea about the AI or Molotovs in general on to the team.

I agree with the first point but not the second or third and I haven't played frenzy at all so I have no opinion about that. Anyways I think I understand your second point but imo this probably wont change anything, you'll still have rambos and toxic people who will just use something else. It's more of a player problem that wont be solved by just taking out the grenades, as for your third point I'd say your wrong about them being useless since they work perfectly for me. If you don't throw it properly yeah their going to run through it but if you throw it properly they die before they can even get through. In-fact most of your points are player fault and if you want more team co-operation I don't think co-op is the best place for it ironically. PVP is probably what your looking for since I feel like co-op is just full of casual's and doesn't have much teamwork or coordination at least imo. Not saying you wont find people who play like that but I'm saying it's predominately casuals, anyways hopefully I got my point across. Very interesting argument though with some points worth bringing up.

[EDIT]
I also think Max made a good point about the lack of enemies between the weapon cache.

last edited by EyeLikeBud

In coop, they're useless, because bots will just run through them - and survive - meaning that the only real use for area denial weapons only harms players.

Make the bots avoid them, and stop them from spamming them on players in counter-attacks, and they could be balanced.

Other than that, just removing them would be a better solution.

@jballou oh, but they will surely die, just like you. you only make sure to place 2-3 on the same spot or at least close enough to aggregate enough damage 🙂

@chaton said in Incendiaries need to be removed from co-op (and frenzy needs a hotfix):

Fixed overuse of Molotovs by AI enemies in Frenzy. Molotov use by AI is meant to primarily prevent players from camping in places unreachable in melee. However, there was a bug where they were wrongly determining when a player is unreachable, and thus using their Molotovs way too much.

A bit dated, as I'm sure you've heard at this point, but this absolutely hasn't been fixed at all. A bit better, but not fixed.

@chaton I mean no disrespect but...

Laser Guided Mollys problem most certainly has not been fixed by the 1.3 or later patches. The recent server-side patches applied to the community servers last week has even made the situation worse.

Simply regurgitating patch notes does not help to address the issue. Have you actually played in a community server to observe the issues the community brings forth in the forums? Spending only a few hours in a community server will clearly indicate that LGMs (as well as many of the other issues we face and report here) have not been properly addressed and in some cases, gotten worse.

On that same note, when other areas of concern from the community are addressed, your cut-and-paste reply of "Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I've already passed this thread on to the team, and they're investigating. I'll keep you updated here!" means very little to me, likely the rest of the community, when there is no followup from you or the developers regarding that issue. It feels like you are paying "lip service" to "stem the flow of blood" without actually escalating the problem. Even if you do escalate the problem, not reporting back to the thread with the developer's feedback and or future course of action reinforces the frustration the community has with providing bug reports and raising issues with the playability of the game.

Again, I mean no disrespect but want to help you understand the community server players and operaters' frustration with long-standing unresolved issues that are reported in the hopes that you can provide better feedback to us in the future.

The "comms bug" issue was such a problem, many players in my community simply stopped playing SS. The impact of that bug was absolutely infuriating to anyone trying to play tactically or even use the Commander/Observer role. Amongst the many threads bringing this issue to your attention, the stock cut -nd-paste answer was all I could ever find. The fix took a very long time, much longer than many players could tolerate.

I understand that the bulk of SS sales are for the matchmaking players but you and Focus Home should be aware that the original Insurgency was born on the backs of the community contributors for development of the maps, theatres, the weapon models, attachments, etc. NWI would never have come so far past the original 'Mods' without the generous contributions from the community prior to the release of Standalone Insurgency and Day of Infamy. One would hope that the dev team remember that their current success can be traced back to those contributions and that we, the dedicated server/modder/mapmaker community still matter to them despite being a rather insignificant portion of the game's revenue.

Respectfully,
Meatwad

There's nothing wrong with molotovs right now. Getting killed ten seconds into the game? COMPLETELY fine.

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