Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!

@benz Wrong, If I flank around and find half the team in a hallway and start shooting, the high TTK will make it very likely 1 or more of the 8 enemies will turn around and kill me back before I can kill them all.
Superior positioning of myself should be rewarded instead bad gunplay mechanics getting you killed in that kind of situation.
I love flanking in Insurgency2014 and have actually in a few uncommon cases have killed half the enemy team in a single flank.

Come on guys. Loads of you complain about realism, but no one actually thought about few things. In real life bullets often don`t kill people with first shot. Hell, sometimes people who got shot do not even realize they got shot. If you want so called realism - get ready to die from bleeding effect without any visible effects on screen (as one of the possibilities). Other guy complained about pistols not killing people with two shots to the center mass. Have you seen much people with no armor in this game? Most (even cheap civilian market) armor wests can easily eat up few pistol shots. There are no AP rounds in game yet. There are armor plates out there which can easily withstand few common FMJ rounds with ease. So killing people with them might take some time, or will actually make you aim better. Havent seen people not dying from a headshot in this game so far.

@slazenger said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

@benz Wrong, If I flank around and find half the team in a hallway and start shooting, the high TTK will make it very likely 1 or more of the 8 enemies will turn around and kill me back before I can kill them all.
Superior positioning of myself should be rewarded instead bad gunplay mechanics getting you killed in that kind of situation.
I love flanking in Insurgency2014 and have actually in a few uncommon cases have killed half the enemy team in a single flank.

Cool example. How does that prove your point? It doesn't. Proof: CSGO. People do what you describe just fine at higher levels.

So, you want an easy game? Nice. I can respect that you want an easy game. Doesn't mean everyone wants an easy game.

@slazenger said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

@benz Wrong, If I flank around and find half the team in a hallway and start shooting, the high TTK will make it very likely 1 or more of the 8 enemies will turn around and kill me back before I can kill them all.
Superior positioning of myself should be rewarded instead bad gunplay mechanics getting you killed in that kind of situation.
I love flanking in Insurgency2014 and have actually in a few uncommon cases have killed half the enemy team in a single flank.

Good point! If you turn the TTK high enough, it is actually impossible to win a 1 vs 2 fight as the 1 guy, because with high enough TTK they have all the time in the world to both focus on you and deal 200% of your DPS. So as long as their reaction time is faster than half the TTK, you're dead and you didn't even take one with you. If their reaction time is slightly above half TTK, then you kill one of two and then the other one kills you, making it a boring 1 to 1 trade like you see countless times in COD-style shooters.

@jesus-man said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

or will actually make you aim better.

The game has waaay too much weapon sway from various sources and non-deterministic recoil patterns for that. The "git gud" argument only works in games like CS:GO where you have super accurate first shots and can learn to compensate the recoil patterns because they are always the same. Mixing this stuff doesn't work imho.
And I don't use the realism arguments because reality is not a fun place to be in. It's all about gamedesign! I wouldn't want to be on a real battlefield and get shot at, would you?

@grotesqueshadow said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

Good point! If you turn the TTK high enough, it is actually impossible to win a 1 vs 2 fight as the 1 guy, because with high enough TTK they have all the time in the world to both focus on you and deal 200% of your DPS. So as long as their reaction time is faster than half the TTK, you're dead and you didn't even take one with you. If their reaction time is slightly above half TTK, then you kill one of two and then the other one kills you, making it a boring 1 to 1 trade like you see countless times in COD-style shooters.

It's not a good point. Just because you agree with him doesn't mean you should blindly accept this utterly stupid example as "proof", as i have explained.

If you turn the TTK high enough, it is actually impossible to win a 1 vs 2 fight [bla bla bla]

People win 1v2, 1v3,1v4 and 1v5 all the time in CSGO. It's just harder. 🙂

Your "example" doesn't even make sense. It's just plain absurd. The average human reaction time is what? 200ms? And that's literally just for realizing you are getting shot. You then still have to process the information, make a decision and take actions. You literally ignore this things and argue purely from reaction time?! Christ. CHRIST.

Even in ins:s i have been able too take down multiple people in 1 full-auto just fine, despite the hitreg issues. How so?!

So you too want an easy game?

I start to think that all the people that want low TTK just want an easy game.....

last edited by Benz

The "git gud" argument only works in games like CS:GO where you have super accurate first shots and can learn to compensate the recoil patterns because they are always the same.

Eeeh... Actually "git gud" argument works in all games. Especially in games where you have a gun/bow/spell/pewpew stick and you need to aim with our mouse/gamepad/otherinputdevice and hit certain target at certain range. Sway can be mitigated by attachments or body position. All guns climb certain way in all games, and in games which simulate firearms its always going to be up and to the right or up and to the left and never down, so you can predict where its going to jump. Left and right modifiers can be removed(or partially removed) by a front grip. FAL or G3 climbs completely different from an m4 and each gun has its climb pattern both in game and real life. Its a bit more complicated pattern than in CS but it is still a pattern. Each time I shoot a gun in game I am not going to be surprised by recoil because its always the same. So if I am not running and sitting still I can shoot 8 out of 10 heads 50-100 meters away with red dot sight. And those are going to be 1 taps. If in same situation Im going to switch to full auto - im most likely not going to hit much. Will you hipfire a PKM at a sniper who is well beyond 100m away from you? If that answer is yes - "git gud" 🙂 Also positioning is a skill which helps to shoot people efficiently. So experience and skill are still applicable in this game. Same as in any other game. Also in this game, if its a close engagement, all your shots are hitscan. So aiming is very similar (even though a bit more "hardcore") to loads of arcade shooters where reaction time and headshots are everything.
And about realism comments: maybe you didn`t, but someone else did somewhere in the thread. That was an outcry.

last edited by Jesus Man

The "git gud" argument only works in games like CS:GO where you have super accurate first shots and can learn to compensate the recoil patterns because they are always the same.

Actually lold.

  1. csgo doesnt have super accurate first shots, it's literally what people complain/complained about a lot over the lifetime of csgo
  2. you can compensate the recoil in ins as well, its ez pz. just pull down your mouse lol.

@grotesqueshadow said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

Good point! If you turn the TTK high enough, it is actually impossible to win a 1 vs 2 fight as the 1 guy, because with high enough TTK they have all the time in the world to both focus on you and deal 200% of your DPS. So as long as their reaction time is faster than half the TTK, you're dead and you didn't even take one with you. If their reaction time is slightly above half TTK, then you kill one of two and then the other one kills you, making it a boring 1 to 1 trade like you see countless times in COD-style shooters.

Yup, Sandstorm is totally a clone of CoD in terms of that kind of situation. I remember playing CoD on console for days then years later coming to PC and playing CoD their HARDCORE gamemode, where every gun killed in 1 shot for the most part. It was a totally different experience.

That kind of situation will play out different between the CORE and HARDCORE gamemode.

Core: kill 1, any others will quickly turn around and out dps you. <--- you are not rewarded for smart flanks, instead you'd mostlikely get killed.
Hardcore: if you stay calm you can easily kill all the enemies you flanked around behind. <--- You are rewarded for making a smart flank.

Now, as for Sandstorm, which of the above do we want? Yes, we want the latter, just like how it was in Insurgency2014.

@slazenger said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

any others will quickly turn around and out dps you.

I'm starting to see a recurring problem, how does one player get turned on that many times? If you had footage of your play that would be fantastic.

@grotesqueshadow said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

Good point! If you turn the TTK high enough, it is actually impossible to win a 1 vs 2 fight as the 1 guy, because with high enough TTK they have all the time in the world to both focus on you and deal 200% of your DPS.

This is probably the worst thing I've read on this forum so far.
First off, the average human response time to visual stimulus is 0.25 seconds, the lowest damage weapon in CoD WW2, the STG 44, has a 4 shot kill with a time to kill of only .27 seconds. So it's likely that if you didn't miss on a guy who didn't even know you were there, you've killed him before he can react in time. The second player, who may or may not have reacted at the same time as the first player, now has to acquire a target at a ~180 degree angle, which more then likely will require more mouse sensor then his mouse-pad would provide, even with a big boy like mine. You already know where the second target is, are hopefully positioned in a nice angle or spot of cover to make his shot even harder, have already gone through that first shot recoil which is often larger then the shots following that, and can just spray transfer (change targets without stopping inbetween) a much shorter distance to take out the second guy. This isn't even counting ADS time, if he was mid engage with another player, ammo counts, etc.

I already had my doubts about those who sort of avoided playing "those cod style shooters" because i felt like those games taught a very good set of fundamentals that can apply to literally any other shooter game created. But im starting to think people here are just bad.

While im here:

@grotesqueshadow said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

The game has waaay too much weapon sway from various sources and non-deterministic recoil patterns for that. The "git gud" argument only works in games like CS:GO where you have super accurate first shots and can learn to compensate the recoil patterns because they are always the same.

Insurgency has always just been a "just pull the mouse down 4head" game, even the Machine guns are just a matter of a slight vertical counteraction, CS:GO has a much more difficult time especially because you will have to incorporate movement into the pattern.

Oh also, about hardcore modes, they typically were not played because the game was balanced for 100hp, and then when it's suddenly only 60, a lot of guns become broken overpowered.

last edited by biass

One-Shot-Kill mechanic amplifies the importance of "Hiding" and "Spotting" and it puts more emphasis on "Hiding" and "Spotting".

If you cannot kill your enemy with one single shot , "Hiding" and "Spotting" becomes irrelevant.

If you can kill your enemy with one single shot , "Hiding" and "Spotting" becomes much more important.

last edited by Nick Kim

@grotesqueshadow said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

Like I said in my long post about ttk a while ago, in some areas INS2014 had a lower skill ceiling and I think that is a good thing. It feels more like a tactical game because the shooting (aka execution of your plan) is easier and the plan you had in the first place matters more.

Check out my thoughts (second post on the page) here about making the game tactical: https://forums.focus-home.com/topic/29335/we-want-the-one-hit-kills/62?page=4

You can find the reason why low TTK makes game feel more tactical and also why sandstorm is feeling less tactical at the moment.

@slazenger said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

Core: kill 1, any others will quickly turn around and out dps you. <--- you are not rewarded for smart flanks, instead you'd mostlikely get killed.

There is something missing here in my opinion. If that happens then player has actually evaluated the advantage wrong (ie. even though player has flanked = positional advantage, if player has no plan on how to get out if things go wrong = positional mistake). Flank is still rewarded in this example if player gets the kill or even two and is able to retreat in time.

In this situation too low TTK like 1-hit kills, would make positioning skill area more simple: there's no need to make sure that player is able to retreat, just need to be able to get the flanking movement. So there's only 1 element in positioning = more simple than 2 elements in positioning (flanking movement AND plan to retreat)

So a balanced TTK would make this kind of situation more tactical (2 elements of positioning).

last edited by jensiii

He doesn't even try to argue with people that are countering his stupid example. Says everything.

People in here just want an easy mode game.

@benz just get off the forums dude. You're legit on here 24/7 complaining about other peoples opinions in such a rude manner. We are just here to discuss the games state, and the problems the player base has with it. Not call each other idiots. if you disagree say so, but stop with the rude posts. It's childish, and you will never get your point across.

@highburrito Can you please quote me where i call anyone an "idiot"? Spoiler, you can't. Prove me wrong with facts instead of lying.

His example IS stupid and people in here explained why. Can't handle facts? Not my problem. Yours.

Only valid reason for a low TTK:

"I like it".

Point.

GJ backseat moderating.

@benz said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

He doesn't even try to argue with people that are countering his stupid example. Says everything.

You called his example stupid, basically calling him an idiot. shush child. learn to read your own comment.

@highburrito said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

@benz said in Has the TTK been increased? if so... why?!:

He doesn't even try to argue with people that are countering his stupid example. Says everything.

You called his example stupid, basically calling him an idiot. shush child. learn to read your own comment.

😂

Ok. Are you saying his example isn't stupid? Then try and counter arguments that have been made in here. Do something productive in this discussion. Will you?

last edited by Benz

@Benz Ill say it again. I actually agree with you here. My uncle served overseas and would tell stories about how it would take 5-10 shots on a guy to take him down at all. I feel like the current gameplay will do well once the hitreg is fixed, so those arguing with the "Realism" Don't really understand what bullets can do in the body, and how long the body can hold up to a mag dump. Just look at any police shooting body cams, and you will see 60 shots on one dude, and the dude will still be up and shooting. Realism is here, its just the hitreg that is muffed up. Also tagging needs to be better. Movement in general.

New World Interactive

Try the patch that helps solve some of the hit-reg issues that affect TTK tomorrow and let us know what you think. Until then, I'm locking this thread, as it has devolved. Be nicer to each other. We all want this to succeed.

last edited by alexblonski

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