TTK needs a kick up the @#$*

When @jensiii posts, my head bobs up and down in constant agreement. You're really making the points I've been trying to make in a very organized format.

@Whitby there's no way that you're NOT advocating for instagib aka OSK aka OHK, etc. Furthermore, whether people use armor all the time or not is entirely dependent on point balance, not the armor itself.

@Benz I see your point, 4k or so loyal players on steam isn't exactly something to get extremely wet about … which means that Sandstorm needs to do something different from ins2 in order to make that number really take off. For all you others who are getting offended at this, you seem to be interpreting @Benz's comments as if they were insults, which they may come off as, but I feel like he's just pointing out that ins2 was flawed. There are obviously 4k people who really enjoyed it, and they're all probably concentrated on this here forum. However, I was one of those 4k players and I don't hold ins2 gameplay as the pinnacle of gunplay, I thought it was better than everything else out there, but it still needed changing.

@thehappybub 2.5k avg. peak over its life-time so far. Just to clarify it's not even 4k. Yeah, just putting out real, hard and undeniable data.

Being the "pinnacle" of something doesn't say much in general. It's highly subjective and a game does consist of more than 1 gamplay element. You'd f.e. say that CPMA is the pinnacle of movement in FPS games... that game has less than 50 players.

While something can be the pinnacle in some area, you still have to look it if works in the games whole context or not.

last edited by Benz

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Well since everyone is going to wear armour and be a bullet sponge, the unarmoured TTK isn't worth discussing, is it? One shot to kill with a rifle round, upper torso, even with heavy armour. Good gameplay. Sorted.

If everyone is going to wear heavy armor in all cases, is the armor then balanced correctly?

What are all the possible ways to balance armor?

@jensiii i don't run any armor and usually top frag in competitive games/most of casual games. So the "everyone gets heavy armor" is bullshit anyways.

That said: if armor is mandatory and not a choice, it's not balanced well. My playstyle fits a no-armor loadout quite well, compared to others. If you (the general you) feel armor is mandatory...you are probably doing something wrong tbh.

One shot to kill with a rifle round, upper torso, even with heavy armour. Good gameplay. Sorted.

Good lord. 😂 Wondering why you didn't suggest to just remove armor then. Genius gameplay design. Not.

I can just hope NWI is sane and doesn't listen to these obv. casuals. Holy christ...1 shot vs heavy armor. 😂

@ctbear1996 what do you have to say about that claim? Really interested in your opinion here. 1 shot vs heavy armor.

last edited by Benz

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@jensiii i don't run any armor and usually top frag in competitive games/most of casual games. So the "everyone gets heavy armor" is bullshit anyways.

Yep I don't believe in that either. It would only happen if armor was OP and unbalanced.

That said: if armor is mandatory and not a choice, it's not balanced well.

Exactly. And balancing armor is about tweaking a whole lot of parameters besides how many shots it takes to kill (I know you know it, but I just want to state it to make sure everyone sees it and starts to think about it).

I just wonder how OHKing heavy armor would somehow magically balance armor.. But probably balancing armor is not even the goal of such claim.

Wondering why you didn't suggest to just remove armor then.

Actually it has been suggested! But I don't think it was him though, it was someone else and in some other TTK thread.

last edited by jensiii

That said: if armor is mandatory and not a choice, it's not balanced well.

I mean, lets be realistic here. Wearing a vest that might save your life compared to not wearing one is pretty rhetorical in itself. The only instance youd not want this is for more mobility or flexibility but like, thats it. Its not mandatory, its just the best for 90% of people because most people arent playing a speedy quick boy who needs to run really fast.

As I've said in this thread like twice already, the balancing is in the points! The player should be forced to choose between a highly-generalized 3 possible loadouts:
1.) High offensive output, lower defense.
2.) High defensive, moderate offensive.
3.) Moderate both.

Heavy armor should be more expensive and the weapons that deal better with heavy armor (5.56 rifles, MP7, etc) should also be more expensive. Equipping heavy armor and one of these weapons as your primary should be near impossible unless you also wanted to have either no ammo capacity and/or no weapon attachments. That's just my idea of how it could be balanced.

Still, my overarching point is that instagib through heavy armor is not realistic, not smart, and shouldn't belong in this game. OSK/OHK without armor, of course. But once you throw on heavy armor, it should accurately, or at least close to accurately, reflect its intended purpose!

@ziggylata said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

I mean, lets be realistic here. Wearing a vest that might save your life compared to not wearing one is pretty rhetorical in itself. The only instance youd not want this is for more mobility or flexibility but like, thats it. Its not mandatory, its just the best for 90% of people because most people arent playing a speedy quick boy who needs to run really fast.

Yes, probably most players would still use armor unless they are wanting to play a specific mobile playstyle.

@thehappybub said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

As I've said in this thread like twice already, the balancing is in the points!

Yes! Points and also:

  • Weight/mobility

  • How large the armor hitboxes are (if armor really protects only the front and back OR the whole torso from every direction. I think it should be the first one, there was a thread about this long ago that armor protects currently the whole torso. AFAIK this hasn't changed, but let me know if my knowledge here is outdated.)

3k average player count over 4 years for a low budget indie title. That's some pretty impressive player retention right there. I challenge anybody who disagrees to find three examples of low-budget unadvertised Indie titles from 4 years ago still going this strong.

Being shot upper torso and dying is not instagib.

Armour should still have a purpose vs shrapnel, pistol rounds and smaller rifle rounds at extremely long range. As explained and ignored.

@whitby now I'm pretty sure you don't know what retention means. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_retention

If the player count goes back to its avg value every time there was a sale etc...... Thats the definition of awful retention.

Before: 2.5k avg
After: 122k
Post-marketing: back to 2.5k

Thats literally awful.

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Armour should still have a purpose vs shrapnel, pistol rounds and smaller rifle rounds at extremely long range. As explained and ignored.

I don't ignore it. I just don't agree with it. This seems to be the final destination for us: we both agree that armor should have a function. We disagree on the function. We both have our own preferences on this matter.

Oh and don't take my UT Instagib example personally. It was meant as an example about how the game mechanics start to function if OHK is all over the place and no attention is given to movement mechanics, which make the tactical side of a game. I still agree that there are situations where there should be OHK in Sandstorm 🙂

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Armour should still have a purpose vs shrapnel, pistol rounds and smaller rifle rounds

I don't even think there is any shrapnel in the game... when you die from say an M67 or mortar/arty its from the explosion. Pistol rounds are supposed to be covered by light armor because thats the way light armor is. Rifle rounds for the most part, should be covered by heavy armor because thats the way heavy armor is. Saying that armor should be downgraded to cover some specific things when it really covers more, especially when armor is already broken into light and heavy, makes no sense to me.

last edited by thehappybub

CURRENT TTK sept28 MY OPINION:

Tried the PVP mode today for the first time, and even with stuttering, the TTK was completely fine in my opinion. The maps are also larger than in the previous installment, so if you need another shot to get the job done in this game, raising the TTK, its still a low TTK at its current state compared to for example CSGO.

The reason I mention larger maps as a factor is that it creates a lot more hiding spots to get killed by campers, so checking every possible spot before moving is harder - And a more forgiving TTK should therefore be welcomed to prevent too many lockdowns - Again, the TTK is still very low, and it works both ways, so I can not see any problem with it. I got 7-8 kills in a few game rounds using the GEA3 battle riffle on insurgent side and the good old M4A1 on security side, they both got the job done just fine, being able to clear multiple hostiles without reloading.

I suppose secondary weapons/pistols are less effective this time around, and aiming for headshots will be more important than in the previous game when using pistols - But that should be fine as a pistol always was meant as an emergency solution, or a supplement to save ammo when taking out unaware enemies when approaching from their blindspot (in my humble opinion).

I have approx 14 000 PVP kills in Insurgency 2014, and experience absolutely no problem with Insurgency Sandstorm TTK.

If you have a problem with the TTK, I suggest having a look at your weapon stats if you have not already and choosing a weapon with higher damage, as the opposing team/enemies in this game have little to zero time to suvive when you spot and shot before they do (if you hit your target that is) - This is on top of having stuttering (I only have 8GB RAM, MSI GE70), so the TTK should be even lower when my rig is upgraded at some point, thus removing lag from the equation.

I have not tried out the bolt-action sniper rifles (M24 security side and Mosin-Nagant insurgent side) and suppose they should be one shot kills, even center mass with heavy armor on target, to remain relevant as viable options.

Yes the M24 use the same caliber 7.62x51mm as the MK14 EBR, and no, they do not need to have the same damage output because the MK14-EBR have a much higer rate of fire - And like every other game the weapons should be optimized to create fluid game balance above realism. Immersion is subjective anyway, and I never understood how anyone can describe a computer game as feeling realistic, though I suppose most people mix the word with immersion=)

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

I never understood how anyone can describe a computer game as feeling realistic, though I suppose most people mix the word with immersion=)

I agree with all of your points. I don't see a problem with mixing up realistic with immersive. If something acts as it does in reality then is it not realistic? I mean paintings can be described as displaying realism, so can movies, so why not video games. Also, immersion is not subjective. It either reflects reality or it doesn't. Whether the player likes how that feels in game is the only subjective thing.

I also think the balance should come only after implementing realism/immersion. If the way things actually work proves unbalanced, then it needs tweaks, but I don't think the developers should be coming into the game with weapons and ballistics that are, in essence, total fantasy and breaking laws of physics, but are "balanced."

Besides, I find that a lot of balancing can be accomplished through the point system and doesn't actually require redoing damage models.

last edited by thehappybub

IMMERSION VS REALISM 1/2:

Hi, I agree that it is unproblematic to mix the words realism and immersion, if both the sender and the receiver is on the same page.

Immersive means deep mental involvement in something as I understand it, and I would use it in a context like: I got completely immersed watching the TV series "the wire" when that came out, while some friends did not like it that much because it didn't appeal to them to such an extent, therefore they did not get immersed. So subjective in the meaning that it is different from person to person if they experience immersion in a certain field.

Video games can look realistic and have mechanics that act like in real life, so by all means it is fair to call some video games more realistic than others. It is me getting hung up in semantics really. What I mean by the sentence highlighted, is that even with the whole realistic package you can get with a modern day shooter, it is still so far-fetched from reality in so many aspects that when someone say the game feels realistic they mean it in the same way a Rambo movie is realistic. Like you would not get immersed if Sylvester Stallone rode on a unicorn the whole movie, but the movie is still unrealistic even without unicorns - It is still an action movie that does not need to pretend being anything else.

I agree with your reasoning about trying to avoid redoing damage models and use the point system instead. And even if it for me would not be immersion-breaking to have a more unrealistic damage model on some weapons to create balance that way, I can understand that it will for a lot of people, and that it should be avoided whenever possible.

It also seems the game mechanics work quite well at this point, and that it is mostly about optimization and getting rid of bugs. If the game released without stuttering or bugs tomorrow, but with no other aspects changed - I am sure most people would still love it.
I think it is that good regarding game mechanics and keeps a lot of the flavour from Insurgency 2014.
From their developer Q and A on youtube 24th sept it seems they also will continue to work with the balancing for a long time, so that it may get adjusted even post-release if they find any balancing needs in the future.

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis Thanks for your response, I see what you mean.

@pacalis said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

If the game released without stuttering or bugs tomorrow, but with no other aspects changed - I am sure most people would still love it.

I kind of agree. I however believe that the current state of the AI makes coop extremely frustrating.

Yeah, I think AI or the bots algorithms could be improved in all games always, as I have never met good AI in any video game ever. (I have played video games since Wolf3d came out).

Certain games like half-life 1 had A.I that seemed to react in a smart way, but those situations were actually heavily scripted events from what I've read meaning they would perform certain tasks when you touch a point on the ground. The AI from NWI on the other hand have some dynamic behaviour (ruleset they can follow in different situations) so even if they seems dumber than for example in half- life 1 or 2, they are actually better in the games from NWI because you want the dynamic behavior to keep the game fun in repeated playthroughs.

My favourite AI is the librarians from the Metro series, meeting them was the weirdest experience as they felt so unpredictable in the theme of the situation. In shooters I really like the AI from the Misery mod for stalker call of pripryat, though that ai would kill you from 600 meters away with a single headshot, so it would not be fun without a save/load function.

Imrovements to coop from my point of view in Insurgency Sandstorm:

-There could be incorporated more bots. A lot more (though more bots = more strain on your system, so optimization first right)

-Different difficulty settings, and a lot higher difficulty settings as options (a setting higher than the old brutal named suicide or slaughter or along those lines would be cool, and have dedicated servers locked on top difficulty for the players yawning through the brutal setting)

  • Rule changes to the mode: If you play a game of coop as the state is now and just run from objective to objective only killing direct threats but trying to avoid most, you will end up on top of the scoreboard with the Ranking "Professional" "secured the most objectives, x objectives secured" or something alone those lines. Even if you are the reason the rest of the players must rush after you and adapt to the same playstyle to traverse the map, no tactics, no safety planning, no consideration of anythig you would brand as professional in reality. They could add team alive bonus to try promoting teamwork, lower the points considerably if you cap an objective alone when x teammates are alive, I don't know, and these changes would go against competitive, as in competitive, initiative and fast reflexes is key skills to get ahead of the opposing team. In light of competitive training it is therefore straight on point already^^ I guess they could have to different categories of coop, 1 category being competitive oriented, like promoting behavior that will help in PVP, and another coop mode that is focused on team strategy and promoting mechanics that ensures people play in a way that helps the whole team.

It is still great fun though, and I guess people rush because it works the best within the current ruleset + makes it faster to level up to get those nice clothing. I don't know but the points I save up gets erased all the time, so I can not save up 600 game currency to get shades to my soldier even if I am lvl 17. But devs are aware of these things I am sure, and with time iron those bugs out.

What is it about the current state of the AI that you find frustrating, could you provide an example? (Like do they kill too fast or too slow, have a moving pattern you mean is not optimal, stay in unnatural places when inactive/camping/guarding etc)

@ziggylata said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Being as nice as I can, wanting oneshot mechanics back in the game is absurdly stupid and the people acting like its a better solution are also a bit stupid.

Lets compare the AKM to say, an M4 under “every gun kills in one hit”.

Why would I pick a gun with: less range, less firerate, slower bullet velocity and more recoil?

Assuming I was playing to win specifically, theres no reason id ever take a 7.62 rifle ever again when a 5.56 will oneshot , seeing as it has much better everything except wall penetration and even then wall penetration is silly anyway and I would never rely on it.

I mean, the argument is as simple as that, theres no reason to even keep this going. The game just becomes 5.56 rifles and nothing else unless someone doesnt have the points for something else or they arent playing with the idea of using the objectively best gun (playing for fun, like using a boltaction).

Please drop this one-hit-kill shit, its going to drag down the game. We just need better effects for getting shot so a higher ttk isnt as bad for the guy landing shots, while also rewarding other players for taking the higher callibers.

^ this is probably the best answer in the entire thread.

@spud
His answer is shit because people used the 7.62 guns all the time in Insurgency2014, where all the rifles killed in 1 shot.

last edited by Slazenger

@spud

Hi Spud, I believe that the TTK is good as it is at current state, I have another post in this forum about my ten cents on the topic - if you click my user name and scroll through my posts you will find the correct one in an effective manner.

With that said, I do not think a higher TTK or a lower TTK got anything to do with intelligence or whether one game mechanic is superior to another game mechanic, but simply a matter of preference. I like tomatoes and you prefer apples, discussing the nutrient value of each product is interesting, but saying one tastes better without acknowledging that some people simply have a different taste leads to no greater understanding on the subject for any parts involved.

I believe as stated by Benz elsewhere that a higher TTK will put a greater emphasis on the ability to hit your opponent repeatedly and therefore raise the skill ceiling in that type of skill set, at the same time I see several valid points on the forum about a higher TTK changing the pace and type of gameplay, as the game can be more forgiving when you for example try to traverse a certain area and get hit, but does not die as a result. If you have a look at a high tier pro match on youtube, in Insurgency 2014 and a high tier pro match in CSGO, they play out a bit different in my opinion, but I believe the teams competing in both games show both high skill sets.

And you have a point that a TTK may be set too low, because it effectively eliminates a lot of other guns from being useful. I mostly used AKM and M4A1 when playing Insurgency 2014 in competitive matches because of just that. Still I could sometimes spectate people with high aiming skills using snipers effectively in competitive gameplay, but outside levels like Panj, I rarely saw the use of those type of weapons myself - even if I have seen a teammate dominate the yard on Ministry with it. Those heavier weapons had a more limited use, because they were extremely hard to use effectively in tight areas (CQB), for me that is, and when needing to have a gun that worked in multiple situations, an automatic was my first choice. Also the range of an AKM or M16 where sufficient across half the map even on levels like Heights, so iron sights became the norm because the maps mostly did not need sights for many players.

In this game we have larger maps and maybe the use for higher zoom becomes more relevant on some maps.
Also, since the game probably will receive updates even post-release like Insurgency 2014 did, we could speculate the possibility that the developers add another game mode with even lower TTK.
That would be one of the purposes of the early access forums right, to stimulate a fruitful conversation about different aspects of the game to help the developers to make a game that hits a nerve with a lot of the playerbase=)

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