An idea for LMGs

Disclaimer: I'm not a gun nut and acknowledge this may have little to do with real life. However, for game play, I thought this might be worth considering:

LMGs (as I understand them) are designed as a support weapon for suppression and area denial.

In Insurgency, they seem to be used more as automatic battle rifles with huge ammo-boxes. To compensate for this, they have been given very large recoil in an attempt to balance them vs. battle rifles.

To encourage their use in a support role, perhaps consider:

  • ONLY let them ADS if the bipod is deployed.
  • Decrease their recoil (they're heavy/stable guns, no?).
  • Increase their suppression.
  • Increase their penetration.

I can hear the objections to increased RNG/suppression already 😉 Fair enough, but I don't have that particular issue. I think suppression isn't rewarding misses as much as it is a tactical tool.

The idea is that:

  • Once set up, LMGs become laser death machines but at the cost of manoeuvrability.
  • If you tote them around, they can still suppress and spray down an area like a fire hose, but aren't good for precision work.
  • Tracer rounds become really useful as you could walk your rounds on target even when compensating for hip-fire sway.

This would give LMGs a very distinct role and encourage a support style of play. They'd be most effective when setup at key positions rather than say clearing a house where smaller guns with greater mobility would be advantageous (thus making your sidearm more useful than just a backup).

Some of you who have read my other suggestions may see a trend here: I find myself looking for tweaked gun mechanics that help differentiate between different classes of weapons beyond recoil/penetration. Having greater differences in utility I think adds a lot and makes choosing between them more interesting.

As always, just my 2Âą

last edited by JLX

I've already asked for better a suppression system or at the least more suppression from machine guns. A lot of people bitched about. I think the game is catering for players that enjoy the COD and BF titles unfortunately.

I always mention the suppression system in the Red Orchestra Series, it was absolutely brilliant. I can't help but smile when people refer to it as 'tactical missing'. They obviously don't understand what suppressing fire is. I'll say what I have in the past, it isn't 'missing' if your target is your enemies cover/general area. If you kill someone in the process, that's a bonus! It's designed to keep the enemies heads down.

If you view some videos of irl insurgents you'll sometimes see them shoot the PKM in single-shot from standing position.

I think the LMGs are mostly fine the way they are. Maybe they could get more sway when undeployed and have a bit more recoil when deployed.

100% agreed on the suppression. With suppression it would be a bit less run-and-gun type of gameplay. It would make the game more immersive and tactical (both things are reasons why I play) and it would let worse players be more useful, which I think it a very good thing. Right now one good player can sometimes win a game on their own. It would be good to pin them down and slow them down sometimes.

last edited by Pakislav

issue with this though, is that once set up, they are really easy to take out in a game like this. 1-2 bullets and that LMG position is dead, and they would tend to need to set up in fairly 'easy to kill from loads of angles' type places to actually be in a position with which to be effective at the support role. Its a catch 22 really. Otherwise you end up with LMG guys just sitting watching the one door way the whole game and not actually doing the job of a support gunner because if they setup in a position where they can provide the team support, they are gonna get sniped down in less time than it takes to say, "fuck it, im dead already".

Game needs proper suppression effects and bullets which do damage. Game doesn't need Call of Duty players.

Would definitely like to see the LMG's reduce movement further than a normal rifle when ADS, that makes a fair bit of sense and would justify reducing some of the insane unjustified vertical recoil on the M249 at least. If not, than perhaps more weapon sway while moving with the thing. They're heavy.

More suppression for all guns in general would make for a better game and define the MG's role further.

@fearthemoose said in An idea for LMGs:

issue with this though, is that once set up, they are really easy to take out in a game like this...

That's a fair point. I'm thinking these would perhaps help offset that somewhat:

  • If suppression on LMGs is substantially increased, shooting back in the general area quickly enough would prevent effective continued fire and/or require the shooter to relocate. This wouldn't help with 1-shot kills but I guess that's the advantage a sniper is supposed to have.
  • Reduce cost of heavy armour for Gunners.
  • Forced use of the bipod to ADS means they'd either be prone or behind cover in order to setup making them at least a little harder to hit.
  • With the low recoil and increased accuracy the bipod enables, they'd be effective from medium to long range. Learning to position themselves further from the fight would make flanking and return fire more difficult thus increasing their survivability.

As mentioned, right now I feel LMGs are just glorified battle rifles and people are playing them as such. With the changes I'm proposing, tactics would have to change (which is kinda the point). If you continue to use a LMG prone too close to a firefight, you are likely to get picked off as you suggested. But, if balanced properly and used as intended, I'd like to think they'd not only be viable but a genuine value add for your team.

I envision the Gunner's role similar to a Sniper in a way. Both provide overwatch with the Gunner piercing cover and pinning targets in a narrow cone while the Sniper picks them off individually.

Suppression would really need to be upped for LMGs. For other weapons, the point is to kill with a byproduct being some suppression. For LMGs I think it would work well the other way around: The main purpose of a LMG should be suppression with kills being a byproduct of so much lead flying downstream.**

@whitby said in An idea for LMGs:

Would definitely like to see the LMG's reduce movement further than a normal rifle when ADS, that makes a fair bit of sense...

I edited my original comment and deleted the line about limiting the player to walking speed while ADS because I'm suggesting that ADS be ONLY allowed with the bipod deployed. Thus ADS with a LMG would only be possible with NO movement at all.

More suppression for all guns in general would make for a better game and define the MG's role further.

Not so sure about this. My gut tells me to NOT increase suppression for all weapons but increase suppression significantly for LMGs ONLY. That would really make effective suppression unique to LMGs and give them a very specific competitive advantage thus defining their role.

LMGs are already lasers when bipoded. They perform better than the SVD, M14, M24, and Mosin for sniping. Increase recoil while bipoded so that it's no longer viable to full-auto people across the map unless your recoil compensation is perfect.

Suppression in its current state needs to be removed entirely, not increased for certain weapons. Adding RNG to someone's aim because you missed is an anti-skill mechanic for both players. If suppression just blurred the edges of your vision, increased contrast, and messed with your audio like Insurgency, I'd be fine with increased suppression on LMGs.

@sharpeyehodgey said in An idea for LMGs:

I've already asked for better a suppression system or at the least more suppression from machine guns. A lot of people bitched about. I think the game is catering for players that enjoy the COD and BF titles unfortunately.

I always mention the suppression system in the Red Orchestra Series, it was absolutely brilliant. I can't help but smile when people refer to it as 'tactical missing'. They obviously don't understand what suppressing fire is. I'll say what I have in the past, it isn't 'missing' if your target is your enemies cover/general area. If you kill someone in the process, that's a bonus! It's designed to keep the enemies heads down.

wow. It's really aggravating to see casuals/newcomers trying to turn a historically tactical shooter into a run and gun COD-esque shooter. I loved the suppression system on RO2. Even BF3, it was pretty awesome.

The suppression in this game is ridiculously minimal. it's disappointing at times to see the game go in certain directions in order to cater to casuals and/or newcomers rather than sticking to their niche/roots and the kinds of things that attracted people to the OG insurgency in the first place.

last edited by Dark1202

@dark1202 Suppression in Insurgency was completely different from this game. The effect was mainly visual/auditory; it didn't add RNG to your gun. I never noticed significant sway added when people missed you, but that could be mitigated by using the focus mechanic (which is disabled in Sandstorm after a lot of sprinting/suppression).

These are all good ideas. I mainly use the machine-gun class since i can go prone and cut reinforcement lanes when the teams are moving.

My personal choice would be to have 2 sets of LMGs. one light and one heavier.

For the Security forces the M249 as a light, more maneuverable weapon, with an increased suppression system due to the high ROF but penetration similar to other 556 weapons. then an M240 as a heavier option with an only ADS when prone system and increased suppression and penetration.
Insurgents can have an RPK added for a light option and the PKM can hold the same position the M240.

Also, there needs to be a reworked bipod system put in place. give us a key bind to set the bipods faster in window frams or other supports positions FFS... the current system, although working, is cumbersome, leads to auto deployment of the bipods in the worst times and gets you killed a lot. setting the bipod to manual is not effective either. ArmA 3 did a great job on this showing when you had the option to set the weapon on surfaces to add support.

Slight buff to LMG's when standing/crouching. especially the RPK.
Slight nerf to LMG's when bipoded. its a laser beam.

20% buff to all suppression. I love the visual effects. turn it up a bit I reckon.
LMG's dont need an extra suppression buff. they have 200 bullets to spare, that is suppression enough.

Brumby's two cents.

@cyoce said in An idea for LMGs:
Adding RNG to someone's aim because you missed is an anti-skill mechanic for both players. If suppression just blurred the edges of your vision, increased contrast, and messed with your audio like Insurgency, I'd be fine with increased suppression on LMGs.

I personally haven't noticed suppression seriously messing with my aim. I like your point. I don't like it, like I don't like aim punch. throwing your aim off uncontrollably is frustrating and never fun.

@cyoce said in An idea for LMGs:

@dark1202 Suppression in Insurgency was completely different from this game. The effect was mainly visual/auditory; it didn't add RNG to your gun. I never noticed significant sway added when people missed you, but that could be mitigated by using the focus mechanic (which is disabled in Sandstorm after a lot of sprinting/suppression).

huh, I wonder what made it so scary in the first game. Thanks for correcting me. I Like sway though.

RNG doesn't bother me. I like it. It makes things more interesting and intense.

@dark1202

It was scary in the last game because bullets actually had a very real possibility of killing you and there were some fairly serious suppression effects. Both of which have been watered down. It's like homeopathy, when you water it down enough it stops making any measurable difference.

I don't think the ADS suggestion would be good for gameplay or be realistic. You need to ADS when moving with a LMG to attack anyone past close range. Without ADS a Laser Sight would also become a requirement to increase effective range.

In my opinion with LMGs

  • ADS time should be very slow when the bipod is not deployed, but very fast when it is.
  • There should be more sway and it should greatly increase the longer you ADS (when bipod is not deployed).

I agree with decreasing recoil (vertical) and increasing suppression.

@whitby said in An idea for LMGs:

@dark1202

It was scary in the last game because bullets actually had a very real possibility of killing you and there were some fairly serious suppression effects.

That's what made suppression work in Insurgency. If you're getting suppressed, it's in your best interest to run for cover unless the person suppressing you is in your sights. Why? Not because missing shots applies some bullshit debuff, because just one of those bullets can send you back to the spectator screen.

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