We don't want the one hit kills.

@mohdak said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

If you want a casual game, then play CoD or BF.

Are you saying ins is highly competitive? Don't make me laugh please 😂

@benz said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

Relative to direct fights wallbanging happens way less. If you make 5.56 more effective vs armor than 7.62, it will simply lead to a 5.56+more supply points meta.

I don't think realism does the gameplay any good for balancing in this case. It's unintuitiv and will lead to weird balancing. 7.62 should do more dmg than 5.56 in every instance. Balancing is way more straight forward and intuitiv this way.

I agree that balancing would be more straight forward that way. And in my opinion it's believable, so I also have no problem with that.

That's also something people are used to, I think. I don't remember experiencing a game where there was that kind of asymmetrical balance (5.56 more AP and 7.62 pierce more through materials), so I was just speculating. It could lead to interesting ways of using the weapons, but it could also lead to the kind of meta you described.

Either way, I'm fine 🙂

@ziggylata said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

To be honest, for heavy armor, 7.62 and 5.56 could probably do just about the same damage and as armor goes lower, 7.62 damage could be higher along with all of the other 7.62 bennefits like wall penetration. To contrast this, 5.56 does lower damage than 7.62 but loses less damage as the armor tiers go up.

This sounds good to me!

@mohdak said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

@thehappybub I totally disagree with EVERYTHING you said. This game is notorious for its lethality (Insurgency Source). If you want a casual game, then play CoD or BF.

Sure you can have your preference. No one can say what you can like or can not.

It was INS2 that was notorious for it's lethality, not THIS game, so....

And this "if you want X, go play Y" is such a retarded reply. I want to play Sandstorm, that's why I'm here. I could just respond to you: if you want lethality, then play Unreal Tournament Instagib. BOOOM! What will you say about that?

@jensiii you'd just say: if you want ins2, go play ins2 😎

@jensiii Originally when they announced Sand Storm at some point they assured everyone that they wanted to keep the same mechanics that we know and love and that they would be staying true to their insurgency roots! This was said by a dev in a live stream I remember watching it and getting excited by these claims this is why I pre ordered the game because that’s what I thought I was buying into. And to say go play insurgency 2 is just as retarded because yes we love ins2 but obviously we would love for it to be upgraded with the new visuals and effects that a newer engine offer.

@planetcanada said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

@jensiii Originally when they announced Sand Storm at some point they assured everyone that they wanted to keep the same mechanics that we know and love and that they would be staying true to their insurgency roots! This was said by a dev in a live stream I remember watching it and getting excited by these claims this is why I pre ordered the game because that’s what I thought I was buying into.

And the game will develop from the current state and we can't yet be sure what the final outcome is. "True to Insurgency roots" can mean a lot of things if it's not defined properly. if it's not, people will interpret it in any way they can imagine. I don't know if they did that back then.

Devs also have the right to make anything they want with their game, it's their intellectual property. I can only give suggestions to them, like you can. They will make the ultimate decision.

You and I don't have to worry for our money, because anyone can refund the game after release, if they are not happy with the final product.

And to say go play insurgency 2 is just as retarded because...

That was the whole point of that example. To point out how retarded that kind of reply is, both ways.

@jensiii Well I’m pretty sure if I remember correctly the true to the roots part was aimed at dmg model and other things too but either way that’s fair and I didn’t realize you could refund the game after release I thought it had to be within a certain amount of time after purchase. Anyways I don’t plan on refunding the game as I do enjoy it and there are a lot of things I do like about it but I can’t help the fact that I was really hoping it would be almost exactly like the source version just as I said with the benefits of a newer engine. But like you said it’s in the hands of the devs and like I said it is what it is!

Youtube Video – [08:39..]

In that part he talks about the low TTK (yes, he says ss has a low TTK, deal with it) and how it affects gameplay. I was actually surprised about his statement, since i agree 100% and it's something i've been saying for weeks.

I kinda have the feeling NWI has a long way to go with balancing. It's all over the place. Weapons, TTK, movement, map design... nothing is good atm. Sadly. Still some time till release.

I absolutely agree 100 % to what thehappybub wrote above !
He forgot to mention that any Rifle bullet and bigger pistol caliber should be one shot kills on targets that don´t wear any ballistic/armour vest ( hitting the head or the chest )
The arms and legs should be two shot kills.

Insurgency has always been more lethal than Battlefield or CoD.

@mohdak That's because everyone uses AP rounds. Try to play a game with default ammo, you'll see that you need 3-6 bullets to drop a guy.

@grumf said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

@mohdak That's because everyone uses AP rounds. Try to play a game with default ammo, you'll see that you need 3-6 bullets to drop a guy.

Yeah, if not more lmao. Some pistols can take up to ten shots.

@fattmedic said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

@planetcanada Your not in the loop because you are a toxic idiot that cant spell worsd lol

If you have to point out grammatical errors in a statement that you already understood 100% by (hopefully) using common sense, you don't have an argument to begin with.

@mohdak said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

@thehappybub I totally disagree with EVERYTHING you said. This game is notorious for its lethality (Insurgency Source). If you want a casual game, then play CoD or BF.

Insurgency Source was notorious for being a one-of-a-kind game which sits in between arcade-y FPS games and milsims. The whole "You die in one shot with AP regardless of armor" isn't why the game got popular.

@thehappybub said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

I'm just basing this off of how armor behaves in reality. From a balance perspective, I don't see why 5.56 weapons can't simply cost more points given that they're basically AP.

@jensiii said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

I recall you saying in some other thread that 7.62 is better at penetrating walls or something similar. Correct me if I remember wrong. If that' the case, that would be a way to balance it: 7.62 better at wallbanging and useful at lighting a house with objective on fire with hail of bullets.

This wouldn't be balanced. Increased wallbang ability doesn't make up for reduced damage against the highest-health targets, higher recoil, and fewer rounds. While it may not be perfectly realistic, the best way to balance 7.62 would be making it deal the most damage against anything.

I have an idea. Armor can both be useful, AND in some situations you can have fast TTK across the board.

When you have NO armor...

  • You'll have a heart hitbox. The smallest bullet in the game will kill you if it hits your heart hitbox.

Heavy Armor:

  • The armor is more effective at reducing damage from long range shots.
  • Pistol rounds will have the most significant damage reduction.
  • The weight of the armor will affect inertia as well as speed.
  • Your turn speed will be affected as well (Like in Escape from Tarkov), you won't be able to instantly turn around.

@gsg_9_lightning said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

He forgot to mention that any Rifle bullet and bigger pistol caliber should be one shot kills on targets that don´t wear any ballistic/armour vest ( hitting the head or the chest )

Yea that lol

@musicnote said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

The armor is more effective at reducing damage from long range shots.
Pistol rounds will have the most significant damage reduction.

Now that's the thing I don't like... armor shouldn't really reduce damage, it should straight up do no damage if a round that its meant to prevent from penetrating hits the rectangle of the plate. After a few rounds the armor would break and then it'd be as if you don't even have armor on that side of your torso. But whatever, if it simply reduced damage by a lot I'd be fine with that. I agree with your inertia thing.

@cyoce said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

the best way to balance 7.62 would be making it deal the most damage against anything

Yea as I said earlier in this thread, I wouldn't mind this because it would only make one gun (AKM) behave unrealistically.

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This post is deleted!

@fattmedic said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

@marksmanmax That guys a dick, Thats why i gave him shit.

Twas why I also game em some raw poop lmao.

@musicnote said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

I have an idea. Armor can both be useful, AND in some situations you can have fast TTK across the board.

When you have NO armor...

  • You'll have a heart hitbox. The smallest bullet in the game will kill you if it hits your heart hitbox.

Heavy Armor:

  • The armor is more effective at reducing damage from long range shots.
  • Pistol rounds will have the most significant damage reduction.
  • The weight of the armor will affect inertia as well as speed.
  • Your turn speed will be affected as well (Like in Escape from Tarkov), you won't be able to instantly turn around.

I'd rather not have specific "extra-lethal" areas besides headshots as adding RNG elements to the damage model doesn't seem like a good way to balance the system.

A nerf to speed / inertia totally makes sense, and a turn speed nerf could work as well.

Yea there was another post somewhere talking about how damage models could reflect vital organs. I think it'd be cool, but I now see how that could lead to a lot of bs scenarios. Just having boxes on like the head and torso in general would be sufficient. Armor would simply encompass the torso box.

I don't understand the exception you want for 5.56. It has no basis in reality and would completely skew game balance. If we're using reality for inspiration, the ceramic plates used by military in their 30 lb armor carriers are rated to stop even 7.62x51 AP rounds and I don't think assuming the light armor acts like police armor (i.e. completely useless against rifle rounds) is good for game balance or realism either.

Ideally for me armor would only protect the areas it would actually protect in real life and perhaps light armor would consist of only a single ceramic plate in front whereas the heavy armor would have plates front, back, and sides with the significantly increased weight and reduced agility that comes with it.

I think the current shots to kill on various armor are a pretty good compromise between being realistic and keeping the game fun and balanced.

@drxl you're the one who seems to have no understanding of reality... the ceramic plates you speak of are called Type IV armor and are designed to take a single hit from a .30-06 Springfield round. This makes it quite useless unless worn in conjunction with Type III armor which is usually steel plates. The heavy armor in game is obviously supposed to be Type III, based on how it seems like it works. A plate would only take 1 round from anything really and be useless afterwards.

Type III armor is absolutely penetrated by 5.56 rounds, though 7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 51 NATO rounds will not penetrate for many consecutive hits.

@drxl said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

light armor would consist of only a single ceramic plate

And this... ??? light armor reflects Type II, which is layers of Kevlar and only works against pistol rounds like 9mm up to a .357 magnum for the newer vests.

@drxl said in We don't want the one hit kills.:

the current shots to kill on various armor are a pretty good compromise

I still think its too low, and some people seem to want armor totally removed from the game...

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@mohdak

I think there's a fundamental confusion at play here, none of the people are asking for a 'casual' experience, they want a 'realistic' and hard-core one. IRL, body armor at level 3 or above will save you from several rifle caliber shots, with bruising only for the first few.

On the other hand, the TTK should be lowered people seem to believe that a rifle bullet can one hit a person in heavy armor, which is incredibly unrealistic and would only make sense as a 'hardcore' experience if it was a WW2 or Vietnam Era game without any body armor whatsoever. Even one 9mm or .45 to the torso of an unarmored opponent isn't guaranteed to incapacitate, that's why IRL, police are trained to double tap armed suspects..

The game with the closest depiction of real body armor is Escape from Tarkov, which might be a little too much for my tastes, especially as we're playing as relatively poorly equipped forces. But if we had to shift the game, that's the direction it needs to shift from source insurgency.

I think the biggest reasons for a perceived too high TTK is the lack of reaction to getting shot, ideally a hit should cause massive aimpunch and sway to simulate the nasty bruise a stopped rifle shot will still produce. That will stop people from calmly turning around and headshotting you in turn, and make positioning and tactics all the more important!

Also, heavy armor could always be made a point more expensive, and slow users more, that isn't an issue of realism or hardcoreness at all, seeing as there all kinds of IRL body armors.

Also, now there's a use for proper sniper rifles for sniping as opposed to scoped ARs, as they're much more likely to guarantee a one hit kill at range.

last edited by AlphaAndOmega

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