Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?

Does nobody remember the Devs saying "No AP" specifically because it resulted in a 1-tap meta that completely dissolved the usage of 2 pieces of equipment, specifically because it was a must-have ammunition?

AP forced a speed meta specifically because armor was rendered useless. With standard ammunition, the TTK in INS:2 is pretty much about the same INS:S' TTK after the armor nerf and ammo buff, minus now having to deal with projectile travel.

The weapons have identity. Wanna wallbang and hit hard at all ranges? Take a high-cal battle rifle.
Want something easy to control, and go for headshots? Take carbine sporting a lighter caliber.
Want to guarantee shit dies in one shot in CQB? Take a shotty.

Tack on persistent HP, and even if YOU don't get the kill, you've set up a teammate to sneeze on your target and finish the job. The TTK is still blistering fast, even with heavy armor, and that armor doesn't protect from headshots.

If you're upset that someone beat you shot-for-shot because he spent his points a little differently, learn to flank, use flashbangs, or "git gud".

The only thing I absolutely agree with is that it is too hard to hit max weight. Until players can routinely hit a point on most specialized classes where they can't take everything they want without hitting turtle speeds, We'll have an issue. But when it comes to objective based games not having good options for anchoring creates rough metas where the only viable ways to play involve trapping and roaming.

Trust me when I say that NOBODY wants the gameplay the devolve into who can plant C4 on the objective first and wait to see enemy presence.

I would like to see such efficient videoclips with semi auto usage. TTK seems to be fine now, but at the moment it seems better to use fullauto over semi, no matter what distance. I dont know why it is like that, maybe because of the optics making it easier to aim and aimcontrol when shooting fullauto?! Some suggested, that recoil is too easy to handle with fullauto, especially with those dozens of options of attachments/supplypoints u have.

@ctbear1996 said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

balancing around competitive should never be the case for INSS.

Do i... actually have to explain why this is stupid?

@derpydays said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

the mechanics that insurgency 2 had has kept the game alive

I considered this game dead in Australia, the only time people really flowed in was when it was on sale for dirt cheap, or less.
I also don't consider the average player good enough to even understand the mechanics, condescending i know, but one two many people with a large amount of hours struggling to kill bots will get to you.

@spud said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Only gun that needs buff is the bolt action sniper for me anyway, shot a guy three times to kill him, all to the chest.

I don't seem to have this issue: https://youtu.be/r5_pKXMpslU

@whitby said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Please stop catering exclusively to the Call of Duty casuals.

are they better then you?

@mr-pink said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

I dont know why it is like that, maybe because of the optics making it easier to aim and aimcontrol when shooting fullauto?!

I don't see anyone talking about suppression.
As long as you sort of shoot in their general direction first, the random sway of your gun can make landing shots difficult, worse if you don't deal any suppression back with semi auto, worse if you cannot aim and need a one hit kill, kappa

I hated suppression in any game i played, this is no exception. Being rewarded for missing is the most stupid thing i could think of, leave it to gunner classes.

@biass "Do i... actually have to explain why this is stupid?" The game is not revolving around competitive, competitive has the smallest player base, the game should stay true to the original.
"I considered this game dead in Australia, the only time people really flowed in was when it was on sale for dirt cheap, or less." Again, the world is not revolving around Australia, it's dead in your country, but still plenty of people playing it in the rest of the world.

@ctbear1996 said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

@biass The game is not revolving around competitive, competitive has the smallest player base, the game should stay true to the original.

Okay, so explain what the point of attempting to grind out competitive modes in an unfinished beta product is? And "how" a game balanced for competitive play somehow is not balanced for joe "im too good for those normie shooters" ke who goes 1 for 8 in a round?

"I considered this game dead in Australia, the only time people really flowed in was when it was on sale for dirt cheap, or less." Again, the world is not revolving around Australia, it's dead in your country, but still plenty of people playing it in the rest of the world.

This game gets around the same playerbase as CoD WW2 actually, a game that costs 60 dollars, and has Mostly Negative reviews on steam, and the lootbox stuff, and the poor anti cheat, and the poor console optimisation, and so on, and so on, and so forth. Let's not talk about the game on comparison to say PUBG, siege, cs:go, even cs source. [EDIT]: Even ARMA 3, which i didnt expect.

But why is that? because this game has "a higher skill ceiling?" all those games listed (including cod) have a harder game overall, So I think not. All the elitists can attempt to defend tactical shooters but they have always had poor reasons to keep playing, and poor overall depth to the game, once you had gained a basic understanding of how to play them, you choices never really mattered, you would clean house with even the weapons really in the game only as a joke. And then the game becomes stale. I strongly believe if Sandstorm wants to be a success it needs to give both a range of depth to the game, making everything viable and balanced and not being a comedy of "whatever you want if you have ap rounds" and then give reasons to both keep playing - competitive being one of them - and to watch. Why would i watch Insurgency over Overwatch for example, despite my preference for the former? Because in overwatch your choices matter and great plays are quite obvious and exciting. In insurgency? People just pick whatever, as long as they have AP it's irrelevant, and the game is hilariously slow, predictable and with less teamwork despite having more mechanics to allow that than CS:GO.

I want Sandstorm to be the next big thing (and to run on my computer, if that's possible). That's why im here burning my time away. I hope some of what i can offer is read by someone who can at least use the encouragement. I know forums are always a joke, but if NWI is pressured into trying to bring back the stale old meta of source and do a Culling, it'll be just another title gathering dust on the shelf.

last edited by biass

@biass You don't even understand what a real tactical shooter is, Insurgency combines both tactical realism and arcade feature of other fps, that's what makes it so unique, if you want everything to be related to competitive, then it loses both elements, the game will just become another R6S where a bunch of autistics doing math screeching about every little thing that affects their "pro skill" and "balance". So do yourself a favor, find a game that suits you better instead, or you can just relax play some coop or casual, don't overly focus on "balance this balance that". A tactical shooter needs balance, but not to balance everything artificially just for the sake of the balance. (Example: Siege, where 9mm and 5.56 rounds do more damage than .308 rifles, and some .308 rifles have pathetic damage; Nerf weapons just because some operator got picked a lot.) Sandstorm can learn few things from RS2 or arma 3, both of them are great examples of balanced tactical realistic shooters.

@ctbear1996 said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Example: Siege, where 9mm and 5.56 rounds do more damage than .308 rifles

Even though i know that siege is not trying to portray weapon calibre realism, I took a look at the wiki for siege and pulled up some weapons at random:

MK-14 EBR, a single shot 308 Rifle: 60 Damage (Note, Apparently the lowest damage rifle in it's class.)
the Para 308, an Automatic FAL with a folding stock: 48 Damage

The R4-C, a 5.56 carbine: 39 damage
The Ak-12, in 5.45: 44 damage

The K1a, a carbine, but classed as an SMG and chambered in 5.56: 36 damage
The Scorpion EVO: 23 damage. That's 9x19mm

Literally google your point before you try to insult me, thanks.

@ctbear1996 said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Insurgency combines both tactical realism and arcade feature of other fps, that's what makes it so unique

Do i have to record myself literally running into enemy spawn and spraying down 8 or so enemy players in source to prove a point or does anyone else play this game at more then a below average skill level too. Surely yes?

last edited by biass

@biass 9mm C1 = 45
Spear .308 = 40
Vector .45 ACP = 21
P226 Mk 25 = 50
LOL nice try though, and I'm not going to talk any more about Siege on the Insurgency forum.
"o i have to record myself literally running into enemy spawn and spraying down 8 or so enemy players in source to prove a point or does anyone else play this game at more then a below average skill level too. Surely yes?" wow I assume you must be really good at video game, so skill is the only thing you care in video games? Hate to say it but this is pathetic, and I did not insult you by any means, you just assumed that.

@ctbear1996 I even ceded to you that i admit siege didn't portray realism and you still had to resort to pistols, a weapon class that deals more damage per shot in source then SMG's (of different calibres, admittedly) too, and a concept rifle that doesn't exist in reality, nice one.

@ctbear1996 said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

wow I assume you must be really good at video game, so skill is the only thing you care in video games?

No, if i did i would still be in CS:GO, but i have fun when the game is somewhat challenging, which source is not, so i want to be able to play against people of my "skill" level in a fair environment. farming casual with no challenge no real reason is not "fun" either. The same reason you don't play against bots. Or invite young kids to fistfights. Or play Rising Storm 2.

@ctbear1996 said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

and I did not insult you by any means

Here is a social tip for you: if i claim you don't know what you're talking about, im insulting you. Saying you're pathetic is an insult too, by the way. Not that i care too much about being insulted, but try to be correct when you do it, yeah?

last edited by biass

@biass If you think being competitive is the only way to be fun, fine, you are the minority here, and don't think this game will ever catering for your group. Or if NWI is nice enough to make competitive completely spereate from rest of the game, with different system, super high ttk, I'm fine with that too.
Here's a social tip for you: your feeling get hurt doesn't mean you get insulted, it's just your feeling and nobody will care.

@benz said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Well, I don't think a game that tries to be competitive should cater to those groups. People in here often are quite quick to say "bla bla this is casual COD".... in the end i think this game as casual af atm. I never played CoD and if its even more casual, fine...but rn ins:s is a casual game and the problem is: there are better casual games. If this truly wants to be a "hardcore" FPS it needs a higher skill ceiling. For me this isn't a hardcore FPS. Name it what you want. It's a casual camp fest. People spray you down with freaking Uzis at long range thanks to the low TTK. This is ridiculous. At least in comp the game is VASTLY more enjoyable.
(btw: i don't consider myself a good FPS player. Slightly above average. I'm just LEM in CSGO and i get rekt 100-0 in games like CPMA/Reflex... but i play ins:s and i feel like a god most of the time. And KNOWING i'm not a good FPS player... this is a bad sign to me)

Nah, don't sell yourself short mate, if you are Legendary Eagle Master then according to these stats ( https://www.esportstales.com/csgo/rank-distribution-and-percentage-of-players & https://csgo-stats.com/ranks ) you are at least in the top 5 to 10% of CS:GO players, and I always felt that as a whole that community has better aim than the one of Insurgency2014. So I wouldn't be surprised if you are top 3 to 5% or something in the Insurgency community in regards to aim. Stuff like Quake style arena shooters is designed to not make for "close matches". The other player doesn't need to be a lot better than you to beat you 100:0 and you don't need to be that much better than someone else to win 100:0 against them. You make the first kill, and the rest is resource control. You said yourself that highlevel play there is mostly strategy. At a LAN party I've once won a Q3 1v1 match playing without a mouse - keyboard only - against a guy that would absolutely crush me every time we played half-life 1 deathmatch.

You are going from a game that has ranked matchmaking (cs:go) to one that just throws people onto servers at random, of course you are gonna feel like Neo in the Matrix. That's both a blessing and a curse. I like it because it means I have mostly good matches as well and consistently place well on the scoreboard and can "feel" where I am on an absolute scale instead of always averaging out at ~1:1 kd and ~50% winrate, but it also means that team balance can be waaay off. I would argue that lowering the aiming skill ceiling is good to mitigate the issues that come from non-ranked play a little. Your clip of the low aim-skill dude hitting you and then getting head shotted by you is the perfect example. With lower TTK you had been dead. Higher bodyshot TTK with instakill headshots amplifies the skill-gap issues that come from unranked server-based play. The requirements of comp play and just-for-fun unranked play are sometimes opposed imho. Contrary to the comp players, I don't agree that good balancing for comp automatically is good balancing for fun on unranked servers. I would agree with you that INS2014 and INS:SS both are pretty casual. I never was into the milsim stuff like Arma or Squad. I think Insurgency got popular because it hit the sweetspot of "the most hardcore fps that casual players still can enjoy". I am fairly convinced that the winning strategy for the devs is to make a game that is fun for the casual crowd and ignore comp. Just like COD:MW2 is for many the most fondly remembered COD mp, but also widely agreed to be the one with the most broken balancing and exploitable unbalanced map-design.
Of course the devs can choose their focus as they want! I have worked on gamedev stuff and other creative endeavors, I have all the sympathy in the world for their role, if they want to make the best comp game that they can, then more power to them and I hope they succeed, but I might not be playing it. I think CS:GO is great for comp and to be honest I really doubt that INS:SS will ever get even close.

@grotesqueshadow Dunno, while i can see what you are arguing for, i also see how even casuals are not having fun in this game. If they would, this game would be way more popular. The competitive community of a game is usually substantially smaller than the casual one. If you are arguing that this game should focus on casuals, i don't think it's doing a good job. Some people might call this "niche" ...others might call this just "bad". Like: i play casual PVP and i totally see why this game barely has players.

A good game, casual or not, allows players to express themselves through f.e. different playstyles. INS:S is very restrictive in regards to that. You can't always play the class you want (how do other games handle classes? i legitimately don't know...) and the gameplay itself is very restrictive. It's very camp heavy in casual PVP matches and you don't even get time to react because of the low TTK most of the times.

In CSGO camping is FAR less of an issue compared to INS:S. Maps are less "complex", less cluttered, way less spots to camp. People usually know the common spots and just pre-aim them etc. . There are way too many situations in ins:s that go like this: you run (you have to move at some point of this game, although i've seen far too many players not moving for a whole round...), you get shot from somewhere, you die, you are wondering where the other guy was and why he was able to spray you down from some aetheral space with an Uzi. Sorry, but that's not fun for casuals.

That's the point though. Bad players ( = casuals in this scenario ) make mistakes. They don't enjoy super punishment for mistakes. That's why no one plays CPMA or other shooters with an extremely high skill ceiling.

CSGO f.e. isn't balanced around comp. The game simply works on every skill level. Look at mobas.... LoL and Dota2 aren't balanced around comp. And yet again: they work on all skill levels.

If you try to cater to "casuals" by lowering the skill ceiling, you are just making your game boring and stale. You don't want people to get "bored" that fast. That's when they stop playing.

@spud said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Only gun that needs buff is the bolt action sniper for me anyway, shot a guy three times to kill him, all to the chest.

I don't seem to have this issue: https://youtu.be/r5_pKXMpslU
Well i have, dont have no proof, but don't know what going on either.

I think the only buff bolt actions (and shotguns) need is a reload-speed increase. Just speed up the animation for adding shells by a bit so you can spend more time shooting and covering than reloading....

@benz said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

In CSGO camping is FAR less of an issue compared to INS:S. Maps are less "complex", less cluttered, way less spots to camp. People usually know the common spots and just pre-aim them etc. . There are way too many situations in ins:s that go like this: you run (you have to move at some point of this game, although i've seen far too many players not moving for a whole round...), you get shot from somewhere, you die, you are wondering where the other guy was and why he was able to spray you down from some aetheral space with an Uzi. Sorry, but that's not fun for casuals.

That's the point though. Bad players ( = casuals in this scenario ) make mistakes. They don't enjoy super punishment for mistakes. That's why no one plays CPMA or other shooters with an extremely high skill ceiling.

CSGO f.e. isn't balanced around comp. The game simply works on every skill level. Look at mobas.... LoL and Dota2 aren't balanced around comp. And yet again: they work on all skill levels.

If you try to cater to "casuals" by lowering the skill ceiling, you are just making your game boring and stale. You don't want people to get "bored" that fast. That's when they stop playing.

There is no such thing as online fps and casual. You play fps to be competitive, be it reflexes, aiming skills or tactical. If someone wants to play casually he has the option to play pve or with bots, or even a single player fps game. The reason there are less players playing Ins franchise is marketing, since bigger companies have more resources to push a game. Also CS franchise is quite old and has established a big player base.

last edited by zefs

@zefs then go and argue with all the people that say "but it's bad to cater to comp players" or "dont you care about the casuals!!" ....

Ins2014 is unique and amazing because of the gunplay. That may well be because AP is OP and armour is not. The relevant point is, the gunplay is amazing.

This skill of aiming in relation to TTK argument is ludicrous. If P1 can aim better than P2, then in a high TTK game both will aim centre mass and P1 will fire first and hit. The mandatory requirement to aim for the head is an artificial one, something which stems from "normal" FPS design which was pioneered by CoD/CS/etc. Ins2014 is awesome because it broke the "normal" way of doing things and created something far better.

Lethality is awesome. Forget the argument of a toe2toe gunfight where you both round a corner at the same time in a corridor and it's a matter of who's the fastest gun in the middle east. Consider how amazing Ins2014 is in that indirect fire is frightening. Some of the best engagements in Ins2014 were the long range indirect ones between two squads, where both sides have suppression effects blurring their screens and are kittycrawling around the sparse low cover trying to get away from all the RPK rounds tearing the walls apart around you. Trying to reposition to get a bearing on a muzzle flash to return fire on the opponent with calls going back and forth between squad members doing their best to figure out what is going on.

The argument that the player should be able to don heavy armour, stand up, tank a couple of rounds like a refrigerator then 420 noscope MLG FPS_Doug the source of the incoming fire in the dome because "he didn't aim as good as you" shows no capability of understanding for what Insurgency IS in the modern game line-up. It is not like the others. It is successful because it is a wholly different experience.

Just because all the other shooters do it wrong doesn't mean Sandstorm shouldn't do it right. Sandstorm should be the Triple-A success story birthed from daddy publisher-money and mummy actual-good-game.

If you want a samey shooter you can play like a caffienated teenager in a middle eastern setting, you should check how many of those are currently available. You may be surprised.

We don't need another. The market doesn't need another.

last edited by Whitby

@whitby said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

This skill of aiming in relation to TTK argument is ludicrous. If P1 can aim better than P2, then in a high TTK game both will aim centre mass and P1 will fire first and hit. The mandatory requirement to aim for the head is an artificial one, something which stems from "normal" FPS design which was pioneered by CoD/CS/etc. Ins2014 is awesome because it broke the "normal" way of doing things and created something far better.

Far better, yet can barely keep players. Makes you think. I guess players don't like "better" gameplay.... oh wait.

Your example is funny as well. Thanks for literally describing your typical SS fight. Just aim for center mass and shoot. People go for HS in CSGO for a reason. Fast TTK. Saying in a high TTK game people would just shoot center mass, despite the fact a headshot would be way better... just shows how ignorant you are. Sorry. Why would you even think that otherwise? What makes you think people would aim for the chest, if a headshot would be the better solution?! You are literally describing SS firefights, where you actually dont need to bother about headshots. 😂

Yes, you are correct...if P1 has better aim (and every other condition is identical) than P2, he should win the fight. That's...correct?

Lethality is awesome. Forget the argument of a toe2toe gunfight where you both round a corner at the same time in a corridor and it's a matter of who's the fastest gun in the middle east. Consider how amazing Ins2014 is in that indirect fire is frightening. Some of the best engagements in Ins2014 were the long range indirect ones between two squads, where both sides have suppression effects blurring their screens and are kittycrawling around the sparse low cover trying to get away from all the RPK rounds tearing the walls apart around you. Trying to reposition to get a bearing on a muzzle flash to return fire on the opponent with calls going back and forth between squad members doing their best to figure out what is going on.

Dunno what game you played, but that's so far from reality I'm not even sure you played ins2 competitively at all. I guess not. If you talk about casual games...probably. A part I don't care about.

@goat-walrus said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

Does nobody remember the Devs saying "No AP" specifically because it resulted in a 1-tap meta that completely dissolved the usage of 2 pieces of equipment, specifically because it was a must-have ammunition?

The reasoning behind it was that from a design aspect, it was a "non-decision" since it was simply better as the normal ammo. So in the end it added nothing to the game at all.

@benz said in Now the hitreg is patched can we please get the TTK addressed?:

If you are arguing that this game should focus on casuals, i don't think it's doing a good job.

A good game, casual or not, allows players to express themselves through f.e. different playstyles. INS:S is very restrictive in regards to that. You can't always play the class you want (how do other games handle classes? i legitimately don't know...) and the gameplay itself is very restrictive.

Finally some common ground, I actually agree with you there! For me the old INS2014 did the possibilities for players to express themselves through gameplay exceptionally well, like no other multiplayer shooter ever came close to for me. I've tried many different loadouts and was able to make most of them work, with exceptions of C4/IED (never could use those well without making teamkills) or shotguns (dunno why, just didn't work for me, might be because of armor). I even had a great round once with only NVG, Flashbangs and knife, where I got the achievement for 5 knife kills in one round. In Sandstorm I don't feel yet like I can make even half the available guns work for me. I feel heavily pushed in loadout directions by the game and I don't like that. If TTK was lower, that would not be an issue for me anymore, like it wasn't for me in INS2. Might be different for you, I don't know how you generally play. If frequently other players shoot at you first because of how and where you move, and you are used to prevailing with better aim and thus higher DPS, then you would probably not do as well in INS2 (or INS:S if they lowered TTK further) as you are used to from other games.

In CSGO camping is FAR less of an issue compared to INS:S. Maps are less "complex", less cluttered, way less spots to camp. People usually know the common spots and just pre-aim them etc.

Yeah, I think in that regard both CS:GO and INS2 have better clarity/readability and are more shooting-focused (CS:GO much more so than INS2, which already had many OP camping spots, but still overall better visual clarity than Sandstorm). Sandstorm imho will be a lot more about sneaky hiding and camping tactics. You can see it in the map design, there are hard to see corners in objective rooms with tables and stuff as cover, that where specifically made for camping there in a hard to see place with good sightlines to entry points. None of those are accidents, they have the perfect size to crouch behind and still aim over them, but be unable to go prone behind. Camping is how the devs want us to be able to play the game, or those assets would have been moved into the corners instead of where they are now, they thought this through and think this is fine for the game. I don't mind too much, just saying how it looks to me.

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